Day: January 8, 2026

Resolve the Georgian–Abkhaz conflict, role of Russia

Georgian politician Giga Bokeria (opposition party Federalists) and conflict expert Paata Zakareishvili discuss pressing issues in Georgian society:

• How to restore Georgia’s territorial integrity so that Abkhazia becomes part of the country not only de jure, as it is now, but also de facto.
• Once this is achieved, how should the consequences of the conflict, which has lasted over 30 years, be addressed, and what actions should the state and society take?
• Opinions are sharply divided, in particular, on whether the situation is solely a Georgian-Russian conflict with Russia occupying Abkhazia, or whether it is fundamentally rooted in the Georgian-Abkhaz ethnic conflict.

The discussion took place on the program Kamatoba (“Debates”) on the YouTube channel Mismine (“Listen to me”).

Key points of the discussion

Host Ana Kaulashvili: Thank you both for coming and making the time. I expect this will be a very interesting debate, as this is a complex and important topic for Georgia. Today we want to talk about what you think Georgia should do now (to regain Abkhazia).

What steps should be taken to resolve the conflict? Should it be a reconciliatory dialogue and reconciliation with our “brothers,” or is a show of strength needed?

I’m also interested in discussing whether you see the situation as a single major conflict between Georgia and Russia, or as several ethnic conflicts.

I would also like to discuss what needs to be done if the problem is resolved and de-occupation occurs. That will probably be a relatively smaller problem if things progress in that direction. But it is still a topic worth discussing and deserves attention.

Before we start the debate, I’d like you to briefly share your views, not on every topic, but in general.

Analysis: ‘Georgia will profit from transit, Russia will bypass sanctions, while Abkhazia will get only scraps’

The opposition Telegram channel, Abkhaz Analytical Center, forecasts who will benefit from the new transit terminal and how.

Giga Bokeria: It’s wrong to discuss relations with Abkhazia in isolation. This is a confrontation with Russia – Russian aggression and occupation of Abkhazia and the Tskhinvali region. And separately, Russia’s aggression against the Georgian state. My position is unchanged.

Only with strong allies, achieving consensus across the free world and neutralizing Russian aggression, but not treating this only as an ethnic conflict. Only by achieving all these components can we be in a position to carry out de-occupation.

There will be a chance for peaceful de-occupation, not a guarantee. This chance exists if our enemy, Russia, and the groups that remain in these enclaves after it weakens, understand it. If they see that we are strong and capable of using force, then there will be a chance for peaceful de-occupation.

Of course, another factor is what kind of country we are. That will also be a factor.

In this sequence – only from a position of strength – can the goal be achieved, which I will explain in more detail.

It is urgent to neutralize the narrative of so-called ethnic conflicts, which harms our national interests.

Paata Zakareishvili: My viewpoint is fundamentally different. Of course, Russia is a key factor. Without considering the Russian factor, success in the Abkhazia direction is impossible.

But for me, these conflicts are threefold.

First, it’s the Russian-Georgian conflict and the need to prevent Russian aggression. Here I fully agree with Giga regarding the Russian component.

Then, in my view, it is important to talk about Georgian-Abkhaz relations and Georgia’s responsibilities.

Third, the Abkhaz side has its own agency. They have their own interests.

If we do not consider and study Abkhaz interests, Georgia cannot effectively take measures against Russia.

We can demonstrate to Abkhazia the strength of a democratic, European-oriented Georgia. This offers completely different prospects to the Abkhaz side.

In this context, I believe Georgia must recognize its responsibility to not only speak about Russia, but also to engage respectfully with Abkhazia, considering their agency and interests.

Opinion: Why Russian political technologists in Abkhazia matter beyond election interference

Akhra Bzhaniya says Russia is seeking to gradually take full control of political processes in Abkhazia

Host: Both positions are understandable. Let’s agree on the rules.

You have both taken part in our discussions before.

I’m very glad that you are participating again.

Still, I would like to remind you of the rules and remind our viewers that we will have four segments in total.

There are a few changes in today’s debate format, and I will explain them now.

First, each of you will have five minutes to present your arguments.

This time will be entirely at your disposal.

Then there will be a 20-minute period of open discussion in dialogue format.

You will be able to address each other directly and respond to one another.

There is a small change in the third segment.

Previously, this was a Q&A segment.

Now we have decided to structure this segment differently.

The first 20 minutes will focus on steps toward Abkhazia’s reintegration (into Georgia)

The following 10 minutes will be a Q&A session, where we will discuss what should be done after Abkhazia’s reintegration, how we should act, and what steps should be taken.

I think this is a rather complex topic, so we will stick to this plan

This will make the discussion easier than breaking it up and asking questions later.

You will each have two minutes to conclude the debate. You may summarize and add anything you feel is necessary.

As always, we will roll the dice to decide who starts.

Paata Zakareishvili:

Three.

Giga Bokeria:

Six.

Host:

The higher number starts the debate.

So, Giga begins. You have five minutes.

Giga Bokeria:

Thank you very much. I will repeat once again that for me this is about neutralizing Russian aggression and de-occupation.

In this sense, there is no fundamental difference between Abkhazia and the Tskhinvali region.

First of all, I would like to say that you, the viewers, or others may have a question.

Why should we spend time talking about the occupation in the current situation, under this kind of government?

When today we have a government that serves the interests of the enemy occupying these territories and helps maintain that occupation.

I will answer this hypothetical question.

This discussion is necessary so that our society can reach at least some level of consensus on questions such as:

What should we do when we have a government that is concerned not with national interests, but with protecting the money and power of one individual, at the expense of the country’s future?

The second, and even more important issue, is the narrative that Mr. Paata unfortunately partly supports.

Today, this regime and Russian propaganda use this narrative against our national interests, to disorient and demoralize us.

What do I mean by demoralization?

Their core position suggests that the Abkhazia issue, and thus the conflicts, can be resolved as if by snapping one’s fingers.

(They think that), on the one hand, it is enough to normalize relations with Russia and, on the other, to engage in full dialogue with Sukhumi and Tskhinvali and create a breakthrough there

Mr. Paata expresses this in a more nuanced way.

This has been said many times before.

This is a major mistake, a very harmful mistake.

A breakthrough is impossible as long as an enemy fully controls the situation there.

Moreover, we must put an end to this rhetoric right now so as not to mislead the public.

This regime tries to exploit people’s fear of war, claiming it is saving us from war precisely by normalizing relations with Russia and engaging in dialogue with Sukhumi and Tskhinvali.

That is their line.

We must neutralize this lie.

Second

When we become strong, we will need unconditional support from the free world.

Not in resolving ethnic conflicts, but in neutralizing Russian aggression.

Because if this is framed as ethnic conflicts, resolving the issue becomes an extremely complicated process.

So as not to be only negative, I will say what we should do.

In this case, the steps that the Georgian state and society must take to solve this problem are identical to those needed to preserve our state’s independence overall.

We need to make a major leap forward in strengthening our defense capabilities.

We must be strong.

We must have consensus on this issue; hostile rhetoric must leave no room for maneuver.

I am not saying that everyone who makes this mistake is an enemy.

But this false rhetoric must be defeated.

We need strong allies and membership in the military-political bloc of the free world

Our task and goal is to join NATO

Strategic political relations with the United States.

This is also part of our strength.

We must strengthen the understanding among all major players and regional neighbors that this is about neutralizing Russian aggression, not an ethnic conflict.

This is very important.

And yes, it is also important that we be a strong, free republic where the rights of every citizen are protected regardless of ethnicity, and where broad self-governance, including regional self-government, exists.

This matters.

But all of this must be done in exactly this order: once again, we must be prepared for the moment when our enemy, Russia, weakens or transforms

The latter (the protection of all citizens’ rights) can only happen after (Russia) has weakened

At that moment, the cycle of this evil and what they have created in the occupied territories, filled with ethno-chauvinistic hatred, will come to an end.

These centers of hatred cannot be neutralized with kind words.

If you are strong, those who remain in Abkhazia will know they have no other chance and that the risk they face is high

Only then will there be a chance to resolve this peacefully.

Now I will move on to another topic so as not to spend more time on this.

How we will act afterward.

Very serious challenges will lie ahead.

The legacy of this evil will not be easy to eradicate.

But if we reach that point, that will be what matters most.

We missed our chance twice.

In 1991, Russia was weakened.

But we were not prepared; the country was in ruins.

We allowed all of this to happen because of our weakness.

This narrative – that it is an ethnic conflict – was imposed on us.

Russia has used it very effectively all these years, blocking any international initiatives without political consequences.

The most well-known example is the Boden Plan, approved by the UN and blocked by Russia through Sukhumi.

Claiming that the people there supposedly do not want it.

They have always behaved this way and will continue to do so; as long as this atmosphere exists, there will be no breakthrough.

Dialogue is impossible under tyranny.

But the main question is: with whom should we conduct dialogue, and who represents the Abkhazians?

And first of all, who are the Abkhazians, given that ethnic cleansing and genocide took place there?

There are numerous problems here.

But what I have listed are the minimum necessary prerequisites for fulfilling our national objectives.

======

=========

Host:

Mr. Paata, let’s take five minutes to discuss your position.

Paata Zakareishvili:

Of course, I can respond

Giga’s position is clear, and I want mine to be clear as well.

The audience should see the difference between our positions.

So yes, we should criticize each other if necessary, but I don’t feel the need to attack his position harshly.

I completely agree with one part – the segment about Russia.

But I disagree with the other two.

I just want that to be clear, though any debate is completely normal

Ethnic conflicts existed from the very beginning, and no one could avoid them

The Soviet Union was created this way

We don’t have time to go through the whole history right now

There was a distorted understanding of ethnic identity

The empire itself was flawed, which is why it collapsed so quickly

But it collapsed along the very seams it was stitched together on

Lenin and Stalin built the empire based on ethnic components

Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, with small “rooms” for smaller ethnic groups – Abkhazians, Ossetians, and others

The Soviet Union was called a Union of Soviets, but in reality, it was a union of ethnicities

We won’t go further into this topic now

It’s a completely different subject and would require more time to discuss.

But the Soviet Union collapsed, and it was stitched together backward

Like a garment tearing along its seams, it fell apart along these ethnic lines.

So it’s not that I particularly want to talk about the ethnic component – it’s just that it naturally forms part of the conflict

There’s a concept called generational trauma

When a child’s birth is accompanied by trauma, it can affect them their whole life.

Ethnicity became one of the reasons for the collapse of the Soviet Union

It was stitched together incorrectly, and everything else followed

Today it’s no longer as relevant, but it hasn’t disappeared

Now it has taken on a geopolitical dimension.

In the 1990s, there were ethno-political conflicts amid the collapse of the Soviet Union

Russia’s internal problems, and its imperial convulsions

Russia itself faced serious challenges – Yeltsin, Gorbachev, and many other issues

Nevertheless, they didn’t ignore the ethnic components and created hotspots of tension along ethnic lines everywhere.

In happened in Moldova, and it was about Karabakh

The Karabakh conflict was resolved before our eyes.

There are many other examples showing how the Soviet empire managed ethnic issues.

Over time, the further we move from the original events, the more this takes on a geopolitical dimension, and the harder it becomes

Yes, I am ready for the “surgical” interventions Giga refers to, but the more time passes, the harder it becomes to resolve the conflict compared to how much easier it was at the start.

That’s why I firmly believe we must not overlook ethnic identity

For the Abkhazians, protecting their ethnic identity is very important

Working on this is not a problem

They are not such a large group that it would be difficult to preserve their culture, nationality, ethnic identity, traditions, language, and so on.

We need to address these issues so that they can see their future within one state with Georgia

We need to show them what we are like today

We are talking about a strong state.

Intervention by force is unacceptable to me

I reject it because while it may seem like an easier solution, it doesn’t allow the conflict to be resolved

Even transformation would be impossible (in case of intervention by force)

We see this in the example of Azerbaijan and Armenia

Relations improved between two sovereign states

Our adversary, the Abkhazians, are not a sovereign state.

So we need to proceed more cautiously than with imperial Russia, where indeed all the resources Giga mentions, including international relations and strong allies, need to be used.

We’ve lived 30 years in this conflict, but we don’t have another 30 ahead

We must solve the issue with the Abkhazians within at most five years

We need to be ready for how to do that.

I would be very glad to devote my efforts to dealing with Russia, but I am spending all my energy on building relations with the Abkhazians

What should we do today?

My arguments might not be acceptable right now, but here is what our state must do

Not the Georgian Dream party, which doesn’t care about the state at all

It only thinks about its own interests

But the state must see that Abkhazia is facing serious problems with Russia.

Georgia has focused only on itself and is not involved in the (peaceful) process at all

There are many topics to discuss – investments, apartment hotels, things Giga and I can talk about

A comprehensive strategy must be created that includes the elements and problems currently worrying the Abkhazians.

So that they see in Sukhumi that Tbilisi is ready to listen

This is what must be done today to make the Abkhazians reflect on it

I can explain in more detailwhich concrete steps should be taken today to bring them closer to us in five or ten years

If we take their interests into account, we can align them with ours.

Although what needs to be done on the Russian side must also be done.

Host:

Thank you, you’ve explained your positions very clearly

It’s good that you raised these topics

Today we are talking about what Georgia should do

But it’s doubly difficult to discuss this and then implement it when the Georgian Dream party is in power.

And yet, it would be useful to discuss in detail which concrete steps should be taken in the current circumstances, in our context, to bring Abkhazia closer and eventually reunite it with Georgia

We can switch to a “one minute” mode

Giga, you could start.

Giga Bokeria:

First of all, what I disagree with – the Soviet Union did not create Georgia along any “seams”

Paata Zakareishvili:

I meant that the Soviet Union was created along these “seams”

Giga Bokeria:

There were no “seams” in Georgia

Let’s not go deep into history – Abkhazia was part of the historic Georgian feudal state

But we won’t go further into that history

We had the First Republic, which included Abkhazia

Even then, the Russian Bolsheviks and the “Whites” tried to destabilize the situation but failed, because it was a unified civic space and three elections took place there

After that, Stalin and the Russian state established tyranny.

And so it is very wrong to say it that way

It wasn’t a matter of “seams tearing apart” – they were dropping bombs on us

From your account, it sounds as if this just happened inevitably, with no other way

But we need to consider the real power dynamics.

You say these events were initially ethnic and later became geopolitical, but they were geopolitical from the very start

From the first moment, the Russian elite rejected the collapse of the Soviet Union

From the beginning, they acted against the Georgian state

Russian military forces were directly involved

It’s a myth that Russians were “just helping” someone there

That’s false

The Russian military-political machine was directly involved, and this led to the outcome, which included acts of genocide.

Bringing ethnicity into this is destructive, both morally and pragmatically

There were problems among different ethnic communities, and the enemy exploited them

This happens everywhere

It’s like demanding Ukraine start a dialogue with Donbas

You don’t agree with that, right? Or do you think they should?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Dialogue with whom? With us?

Giga Bokeria:

No, should the Ukrainian government (start a dialogue with Donbas)?

Paata Zakareishvili:

No, of course not.

Giga Bokeria:

Then why suggest Georgia should have such a dialogue?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Ukraine isn’t my concern

I’m talking about Georgia and Abkhazia

You’re bringing a new topic, so let’s talk about that topic.

Giga Bokeria:

Why are you suggesting Georgia should have such a dialogue (with Abkhazians)?

Paata Zakareishvili:

If you ask a question, I’ll answer it.

Giga Bokeria:

Georgia was not stitched together along any “seams”

It has always been a victim of Russian aggression – then and now

There was no initial ethnic conflict followed by a geopolitical one

From the start, it was geopolitical

And Russian aggression was involved

They used thousands of pretexts, as enemies always do.

In 1921, they came to (Georgia) to “protect the working class”

What did that mean? That they intended to dialogue with the working class? Was that their aim?

So both claims are false.

Moving to the third part

This topic might be used by those who see themselves as morally-minded regarding the Abkhazians

Let’s discuss and clarify

First, Mr. Paata claimed that we should talk to the people Russia appointed to seize Sukhumi and Tskhinvali

Who do they actually represent? And by what authority, under this tyranny and hell, do they claim to represent anyone?

They carried out genocide, killing and expelling those they didn’t like, primarily ethnic Georgians, as well as others sympathetic to them

In other words, they uphold a purely fascist ideology.

And now we are supposed to normalize relations with these enemies and talk to them from a weak position?

And most importantly, what Mr. Paata suggests is already being done by the Ivanishvili regime – for many years.

============

========

Paata Zakareishvili:

How does he do it?

Giga Bokeria:

It happens directly

When you were minister, you even changed the name of the ministry
so that it would please certain people

I don’t know who exactly, apparently those who thought like you

Their narrative was that everything would be resolved through dialogue with them (the Abkhaz)

That was the government’s line, and it’s still the line of this regime

In the energy sector, the agreement was broken, and that was done by the very government Paata was part of

The agreement was made in the 1990s

80% of energy produced at the Inguri HPP was given to Abkhazia as a “gesture of goodwill”

They (Abkhaz) were given positions

And what did (Georgians) get in return?

In response to direct dialogue with Sukhumi?

Georgian schools were closed, ???, people were killed

We cannot create an illusion about the evil that reigns there today, which I feel acutely

If we talk about preserving the ethnic identity of those citizens still there who identify as Abkhaz, whatever kind of country we are, we must do it

Not for them, but for ourselves

For a normal, free country where the rights of all citizens are protected

We must create a system of broad self-governance in the regions, not as a display for others

Yes, of course, they’ll see it eventually

But the illusion must be abandoned

The structures in Abkhazia are built on an ideology of evil and ethnic supremacy, and society is fully poisoned by it

We must talk about that too

What dialogue are we even talking about?

Even now in Abkhazia, under tyranny, you cannot utter a word about the crimes that were committed

(What happens to anyone) who expresses a differing opinion?

There are examples

For instance, a very well-known figure, a hero of the Abkhaz war

For us, he was an enemy

When he said something different from the majority opinion, they pelted him with stones and threw him out.

Host:

Your minute is up

Now we’ll give the floor to Mr. Paata

---

Giga Bokeria:

It’s self-deception, and for years it has harmed us, those illusions aided our enemy’s propaganda

And unfortunately, my friend Mr. Paata still serves this

Agreements with Russia change nothing

You have repeatedly said that direct talks should happen with Sukhumi and Tskhinvali, with a negotiation table, pushing Russia aside

That is very harmful

It leads to all this falsehood, and society gets immersed in these illusions

Regarding the last question

You say you would never consider using force under any circumstances

That is an invitation for the enemy to behave even worse

And if they attack us, then we also should not use force?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Then we should

Giga Bokeria:

So in that case, yes?

But if they are oppressing ethnic Georgians there – then no?

That’s it, my time is up

Now I’m listening to you

Paata Zakareishvili:

Of course

First of all, there was no geopolitics in the 1990s

Now, let me also speak

Giga Bokeria:

I’m not saying anything, this is just my reaction.

ТУТ ЧТО-ТО ГОВОРИТ БОКЕРИА ОДНА КОРОТКАЯ ФРАЗА – НЕ ПОНЯЛА

Paata Zakareishvili:

Back then, the Soviet Union still existed, and Georgia wasn’t concerned with geopolitics at all

Geopolitics starts when the UN and OSCE enter our country

Everything in Georgia begins to be connected to the international context

The Soviet Union collapses

When does the conflict in Tskhinvali start?

It’s a continuation of the USSR’s collapse

Meanwhile, Abkhazia keeps passing laws that clash (with Georgian legislation)

The Abkhaz repeatedly enacted laws that contradicted Georgia’s Constitution

Giga Bokeria:

And Russia wasn’t directly at the center of this, right?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Russia, of course, is involved

But its internal politics hadn’t yet entered the geopolitical sphere

Geopolitics truly starts when Russia begins to lose territories and other states’ interests enter the picture

Giga Bokeria:

The interests of which countries?

Paata Zakareishvili:

The UN enters, and it includes the interests of many countries

The OSCE too, and the interests of many countries are involved there.

Giga Bokeria:

Did their presence provoke Russian aggression?

Paata Zakareishvili:

No, that happened after the war

Giga, when you were speaking, I didn’t interrupt you and didn’t argue.

Giga Bokeria:

The second part is interactive

НЕ ПОНИМАЮ ТУТ ФРАЗУ ГИГИ КОГДА ОН ПЕРЕБИВАЕТ ПААТУ

It’s the interactive part – those are the rules

Host:

Yes, that’s the rule.

Paata Zakareishvili:

We’ve moved into talking about absurdities

Regarding the ethnic conflict

In 1994, the OSCE called it ethnic cleansing

How can it be ethnic cleansing if there was no ethnic conflict there?

Wait, let me speak

Giga Bokeria:

I haven’t said anything

What, am I not even allowed to gesture when such absurdities are being said?

Host:

I’m giving you (Paata) five minutes, and only you can speak

Paata Zakareishvili:

Let our viewers see the arguments

Gamsakhurdia’s actions were actually quite successful

What did he do to avoid conflict from the start?

He created an ethnically-based parliament in Sukhumi

28/26/11 (seats for Abkhaz, Georgians, and others, respectively)

You know about this

This parliament was created in Abkhazia as an autonomous body to calm ethnic tensions

Gamsakhurdia had to step down for various reasons, so he cannot be blamed

But the attempt to avoid an ethnic conflict is evident in the composition of that parliament

28 seats were for Abkhaz, 26 for Georgians, and 11 for those who were neither Abkhaz nor Georgian.

Then what happens?

The parliament collapses

But not into three parts – but into two: Abkhaz and Georgians

And if we don’t want to acknowledge ethnicity, then we can talk about absurdities

Host:

Let’s give Paata some time; Giga, you’ve spoken a lot

Giga Bokeria:

Fine, let him speak.

Paata Zakareishvili:

Thank you very much for letting me speak

Giga Bokeria:

I thought this was the time for the interactive part.

Host:

Yes, it’s the interactive part, but you spoke a lot before

So let’s give Paata the floor

Then we’ll start the interactive part.

Paata Zakareishvili:

If we need to talk about the past, as you said, I’ll say that in the past it was an ethnic issue

But over time, much around us changes

Now there’s the context of Ukraine, the American context

The ethnic aspect is no longer so visible

The ethnic aspect is no longer presented so directly

I gave the OSCE as an example

The UN also confirmed that there was ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia.

Giga Bokeria:

Did genocide and ethnic cleansing happen in Bucha?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Why are you changing the subject?

Giga Bokeria:

Did it?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Yes, it happened.

Giga Bokeria:

So, that was an ethnic conflict there?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Let’s get back to the topic and speak about Abkhazia

Giga Bokeria:

That’s what we’re talking about

Thus, if the OSCE said there was ethnic cleansing, which is a form of genocide, that means the root of the conflict is ethnic, not Russian aggression?

Russia committed aggression in both Georgia and Ukraine

This tool spreads ethnic hatred and then commits genocide against Georgians based on their ethnicity

НЕПОНЯТНОЕ ОДНО ПРЕДЛОЖЕНИЕ ГИГИ ТУТ

Paata Zakareishvili:

That had nothing to do with the situation back then

How the university was organized, in what form it existed – did Russia invent all of that?

This is our problem

Giga Bokeria:

I have a question. Equating someone who committed evil with someone who made a mistake is a crime

What mistakes did the Georgian side, the Georgian political class, actually make?

No matter how flawed the ethnic perspective (from the Georgian side) was, it doesn’t explain Russian aggression.

Paata Zakareishvili:

I don’t argue with you on that.

Giga Bokeria:

You say we should discuss the current regime in Sukhumi

That means we would be offering the Russian occupation regime a narrative that goes against our interests

The real message, that all citizens should see what kind of country we are, has nothing to do with what you’re saying

Paata Zakareishvili:

ЧТО ОН СКАЗАЛ, НЕ ПОНЯЛА

Giga Bokeria:

I want to read something now, and then ask Mr. Paata a question

I have several quotes, and I’ll read them

The Georgian government must first restore direct contacts with the Abkhaz and South Ossetian sides, recognizing them as parties to the negotiations and the conflict

Paata Zakareishvili:

Absolutely

Giga Bokeria:

An agreement with these people must be reached

We are ready to support this

It’s important that Georgia builds relations with Abkhazia and South Ossetia

Whose words are these?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Probably mine.

Giga Bokeria:

Here, your words are mixed with those of Lavrov and Putin

Why?

Paata Zakareishvili:

I’m not interested in their position; I’m interested in my own.

Host:

Let’s give Mr. Paata time to respond.

Giga Bokeria:

I know you’re not interested

Now about Geneva (the negotiation platform)

Another lie

In Geneva, such first attempt failed precisely because of a principled stance

They wanted to officially recognize the Abkhaz as a party to the conflict, and we did not allow that

Paata Zakareishvili:

Yes, yes.

Giga Bokeria:

The Geneva format established that the parties are Georgia and Russia.

Paata Zakareishvili:

Nothing like that was ever formally established there

Giga Bokeria:

Paata, let’s talk about what actually exists

Maybe it’s been forgotten, but it was written in the document of the first plenary session

Paata Zakareishvili:

Nothing like that was recorded there.

Giga Bokeria:

But this didn’t satisfy the Russians, and probably not you either

The document of that plenary session states that the parties to the conflict are Russia and Georgia, with the USA, EU, and OSCE as mediators

Besides that, working groups were formed with no official parties

Participants had individual status

No one represented South Ossetia or Abkhazia

Russian propaganda called them parties and you just repeat it

Paata Zakareishvili:

I don’t repeat anyone else’s words.

Giga Bokeria:

Here’s another quote.

Host:

Please read it now, and then we’ll give Paata the floor, otherwise we won’t get through anything.

Giga Bokeria:

In Geneva, the meeting actually lasts half a day, and in that time three conflicts are discussed: Georgian-Russian, Georgian-Abkhaz, and Georgian-Ossetian

These are terms from your words

The terms are misused

But the issue isn’t just the terms

There’s something worse

It’s a lie

The Georgian government has never done this

If it did during your period, that’s very bad

None of our allies ever treated it as three conflicts

Everyone treats it as one conflict

And the Russian delegation turned it to their advantage

Host:

Please wrap up

We’ll make sure to give Paata time to speak

Giga Bokeria:

Yes, yes, absolutely

Russia has influence over the conflict precisely because, since 2004, when the National Movement developed its new policy on the conflicts, we effectively handed that influence over to them

How could you say that, Mr. Paata?

How could you claim that the Russians didn’t have influence before, and only gained it in 2004?

Host:

Now we’ll give Paata the floor, and Giga will stay out of the conversation for a while.

Paata Zakareishvili:

When you keep jumping from topic to topic, from Bucha to Cambodia or Vietnam, it won’t work

If we focus on a specific topic, let’s stick to it

What happened in 2004?

Tensions in Tskhinvali sharply escalated, and this strengthened the Russian component

Before that, from the signing of the Dagomys agreement in June 1992 until 2004, the Tskhinvali region had relatively peaceful processes

There was construction, roads were built, and many displaced Georgians returned to all regions except Tskhinvali

In 2004, the tensions began

You asked me this specific question – I’m giving a specific answer.

Giga Bokeria:

So you confirm that Russia became more influential after that?

Host:

Giga, please let Paata finish.

Paata Zakareishvili:

Yes, Russia became stronger after the escalation in the summer of 2004

Zhvania acknowledged this, by the way

Zhvania signed an agreement with Kokoyty in Sochi on behalf of Georgia.

Giga Bokeria:

There’s no way Zhvania signed the agreement

Paata Zakareishvili:

What do you mean he didn’t sign it?

Host:

I kindly ask you to let Paata finish speaking.

Paata Zakareishvili:

Kokoyty signed the agreement on behalf of South Ossetia

It was Zhvania’s last signature, 2-3 months before his death

I can send this document and it can be shown

It’s an OSCE memorandum.

Giga Bokeria:

He signed an OSCE memorandum, not an agreement with South Ossetia

This is manipulation

It was that OSCE format, but we did not sign any agreement with the so-called South Ossetia

Paata Zakareishvili:

It was a bilateral agreement

Giga Bokeria:

No, it wasn’t bilateral

Paata Zakareishvili:

You say we did not recognize South Ossetia as a party to the conflict

But here’s a well-known document

Giga Bokeria:

This harmful legacy was correctly blocked by us

Just like the previous Geneva format, where Georgia and the so-called Abkhazia were considered sides

That’s why that OSCE format was blocked

Then the OSCE supported our initiative to consider Russia a party to the conflict

But Russia blocked that

It was this harmful approach in the 1990s, claiming it was an ethnic conflict, that led us to the situation we are in today

This is exactly what they used, and it’s absurd

The war started because Russia created tension, and that’s why it happened

Paata Zakareishvili:

No, of course not, none of what you say happened

Giga Bokeria:

You haven’t changed your mindset at all, Mr. Paata, not at all

Paata Zakareishvili:

On the contrary, I’ve strengthened my position and feel even more confident in my arguments

It would have been easier for me to change my mind and adopt your point of view

Giga Bokeria:

Why not admit a mistake?

Host:

Please, Giga, let Paata finish his thought

Paata Zakareishvili:

My position is not a mistake

Giga Bokeria:

This is my final point

Those who persecuted us for so long, including some of our partners who repeated this harmful rhetoric, admitted they were wrong after Russia’s aggression in Ukraine.

Paata Zakareishvili:

Maybe someone admitted something, but what does that have to do with me?

Giga Bokeria:

Yes, I see, you still won’t admit your mistake today

Paata Zakareishvili:

Why should I follow someone else if I don’t agree?

I state clearly: Zhvania’s policy was correct

We need to eliminate bias toward the Abkhaz

We need to negotiate with the Abkhaz and reduce Russian influence there

Giga Bokeria:

Who represents Abkhazia there?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Those you spoke with when you first went to Gali.

Giga Bokeria:

I didn’t go to Gali

Paata Zakareishvili:
What do you mean you didn’t go? You went to Gali and signed there

Giga Bokeria:

I never went to Gali

Right now, you’re speaking like a representative of the Russian occupation regime

Paata Zakareishvili:

Since when is Gali part of the Russian regime? Gali is a district of Georgia

Giga Bokeria:

It’s occupied territory

Paata Zakareishvili:

You crossed over the bridge, right?

Giga Bokeria:

The meeting took place in the area we controlled

Repeat (your version) as many times as you want – it’s still a lie

В ООН это существует потому, что и там вы обманули НЕ ПОНЯЛА ЭТУ ФРАЗУ

I spoke with representatives of the Russian occupation regime in Geneva, but as representatives of Russia

And you, Mr. Paata, your current propaganda, along with the Russian president, foreign minister, and all those deeply mistaken partners, tell us the same

Unfortunately, you are still repeating that this dialogue should not be with Russia, but with some of its representatives, whatever you want to call them

(Pretending) a dialogue with the Abkhaz is about ethnic issues, while Russia stays on the sidelines

Paata Zakareishvili:

Why are you talking about some ethnic issues?
We’re talking about the Abkhaz – let’s stick to that

Giga Bokeria:

And what can we say about the Abkhaz? I’ve already said, I think all this is absurd

Host:

19 minutes left.

I’ll add 10 of those, five minutes each

Then we’ll move to the stage where we discuss what needs to be done after de-occupation (of Abkhazia)

Right now, Paata has five minutes

Paata Zakareishvili:

We need to have a dialogue on ending the isolation of (Abkhazia)

Right now, the Abkhaz are trapped.

Can I continue speaking?

Host:

Yes, these are your five minutes.

Giga Bokeria:

I think it doesn’t matter whether I gesture or speak

I’ll just say that it isn’t true

Host:

These five minutes are for (Paata) to speak, Giga will not interrupt

Paata Zakareishvili:

The key point is that the Russians are sharply accusing the Abkhaz, exploiting the fact that they are isolated

They are twisting their arms to get what they want because they realize they are losing something important

One crucial issue is that the Abkhaz cannot leave their territory

The only place they can go is Russia

The second and third key points

The Abkhaz travel as best they can

For example, 70% go to Russia, the remaining 30% travel to Turkey or Armenia

This is where my idea comes in

Georgia has agreements with Turkey and Armenia allowing Georgian citizens to travel there using internal ID, not just passports

Not only with a passport but also with an internal ID

This is the idea to help end the isolation of the Abkhaz

You, the National Movement (addressing Giga), left us an interesting healthcare project

We managed to change the National Movement’s requirement that the Abkhaz must take Georgian passports to get treatment in Georgia, even though there was nothing wrong with that

But we added a rule allowing Abkhaz and Ossetians to get treatment in Georgia using their own documents

Dozens eventually came using their own documents (Abkhaz and Ossetian)

I believe steps were taken in the right direction

Because right now, many Abkhaz and Ossetians are in Georgia, receiving treatment using their own documents

========

===========

Giga Bokeria:

Sorry, his time is already up.

What topic are you talking about?

Host:

No, his time isn’t over. I’ve added another 10 minutes for this part of the discussion

Paata Zakareishvili:

Next, business was added to the same scheme, the program «К лучшему будущему», during (the PM) Kvirikashvili’s time

The Abkhaz and Ossetians were receiving state benefits in Georgia using their own documents

Here’s the idea

You have an ID that’s invalid and illegal in Georgia.

Yet, you use it to get medical care and do business in Georgia.

You can even receive state grants using it

(The further steps) might not be publicized, but it’s better to inform about it

Let’s recognize their documents as equivalent to Georgian internal IDs

We’ve already effectively done this

They receive treatment here using their documents, which are registered legally as Georgian internal IDs

Then we inform Turkey and Armenia that Georgia issues (more) internal IDs

The first document is the one that all Georgian citizens have

Second – the documents they have in Abkhazia.

Third – Ossetian documents

And these people will be able to enter and exit Turkey and Armenia (using their own documents)

They won’t be able to travel anywhere else using these documents

Georgia must show more goodwill and break their isolation

For these two countries, we already have a system in place for such trips

So they (Abkhaz and Ossetians) won’t be able to travel elsewhere

Georgia doesn’t have such agreements with other countries

But in Armenia and Turkey, we can ensure that the maximum number of Ossetians and Abkhaz (can travel there)

Giga Bokeria:

What topic are we talking about?

We are talking about the people appointed by the Russian occupation regime in Sukhumi

This is the topic, right?

Host:

Giga, please let him finish

Paata Zakareishvili:

Nothing has been done for 30 years

And now suddenly they have the opportunity to travel to Turkey and Armenia with their document, which also counts as a Georgian ID

Why not start something?

We started with healthcare

Continued with business and education

The education (attempt) failed, but something was achieved

Why not let these people travel through Georgia?

They leave Sukhumi, pass through Achara, all of Georgia, go to Turkey, work there, and then return the same way

They won’t be able to travel anywhere else from there

Giga Bokeria: And then what?

Paata Zakareishvili:

What do you mean, “then”?

We need to start with something

How can we endlessly talk about reconciliation steps?

These are concrete steps

We can discuss more later

In five years, we’ll see how things develop

If none of this works, we’ll try other ideas

The Middle Corridor will pass (through Georgia), bringing internet, for example, from Europe

Why not establish another line?

So that internet in Abkhazia connects to Georgia, not Russia

Host:

Would Russia even allow this to happen?

Paata Zakareishvili:

We need to start taking action, to change the situation

If Russia doesn’t allow it – then we’ll discuss it later

ТУТ ПААТА ЧТО ТО СКАЗАЛ – НЕ ПОНЯЛА

We need to work on practical measures

Banks, the banking system

Why not create a basic banking system in the Gali region so local Georgians can send and receive funds?

Overall, people in Abkhazia would use this system, which would be linked to Georgia’s banking network.

Many steps can be taken even before de-occupation

De-occupation will happen – but by that time we could completely lose these people

And it’s possible that instead of de-occupation, annexation could occur

Just as Crimea was annexed and incorporated by Russia, the same could happen with Abkhazia

Host:

Thank you

Giga, I’m giving you five minutes now.

Giga Bokeria:

I’ve been listening all this time and I don’t understand: what is the topic of this discussion?

Host:

The topic is: what concrete steps should be taken for de-occupation

Giga Bokeria:

I don’t even have illusions anymore after hearing all this today

And after Russia’s aggression in Ukraine.

What will help people understand and open their minds to what is actually happening?

The steps Georgia takes for citizens in the occupied territories don’t depend on their ethnicity.

Whether it’s healthcare or something else

This could be part of discussing our long-term interests

But this has nothing to do with what Mr. Paata says, and unfortunately, this is where many in our parties are mistaken

And most importantly – our enemy has for years demanded that dialogue be held with the governments it appointed there

Russia wants us to recognize them as a party to the conflict

And this is exactly what Mr. Paata is saying

These are the statements I read (as Paata’s quotes), and this is what you’ve discussed today.

Paata Zakareishvili:

Yes, yes.

Giga Bokeria:

This is the main evil opposing our national interests

The other steps you listed – some are correct, some are wrong

You can debate some of the steps you mentioned

But it’s absurd to talk about this while Russia has full military and political control there

The assumption that (such steps) could lead to a breakthrough – is, forgive me, a politically harmful foolishness

Why?

Because no one gives up power voluntarily

That doesn’t happen

The current conditions there can roughly be compared to the situation in Gaza

Some say you need to work with public opinion in Gaza

There are people who say that

Under Hamas’ tyranny?

I must say, regardless of the situation in the Tskhinvali region and Abkhazia under Russian rule, any dialogue is impossible until a transitional process is carried out

What kind of country is Georgia? What can it offer everyone?

There are factors for the long-term perspective

However, they have nothing to do with fulfilling the geopolitical goal the enemy wants – recognizing Sukhumi and Tskhinvali as parties to the conflict

Host:

НЕ ПОНЯЛА, ЧТО ОНА ГОВОРИТ

Giga Bokeria:

This won’t bring any breakthrough in the situation

It’s the illusion I’ve heard from you many times

That they would see and say: “What a good country Georgia is, let’s join the Georgians”

Evil will never allow anything like that

Paata Zakareishvili:

Evil is not a political term

Host:

НЕ ПОНЯЛА, ЧТО ОНА ГОВОРИТ

Giga Bokeria:

Violence exists

That’s why I gave examples

Look at the situation in Gaza – the whole world helped, invested enormous sums of money

Yet all they did was build tunnels and buy weapons

Because it is a parasitic system built on ethnic hatred – a system Russia has created there, in Abkhazia

Host:

That’s why we need to show goodwill toward Abkhaz and other ethnic groups

Giga Bokeria:

That has nothing to do with it

Resolving the conflict means neutralizing Russian aggression

We must be a good country for all our citizens.

Of course, that matters for the part of the territory we haven’t yet returned to

Once that force is dismantled, than we’ll discuss and may disagree on what the civic order should look like afterward

There is only one political nation – the Georgian nation

It can include citizens of different ethnic backgrounds, cultures, and religions.

But there is no state that contains two nations.

State and nation are one – and only one

All these ideas I’ve heard, including from Saakashvili.

A “Georgian–Abkhaz state”

That is a catastrophic mistake.

History gives us an example of a disastrously wrong step taken by President Gamsakhurdia, which had grave consequences

The rise of Ardzinba

Paata Zakareishvili:

It had no consequences at all

Unfortunately, that idea failed

Giga Bokeria:

I know, I know.

Ardzinba was elected as a result of that.

Both Gamsakhurdia himself and his supporters later admitted it was a wrong decision

But the very approach of building politics on an ethnic basis is destructive to the idea of a national state.

I’m not saying people should be forcibly assimilated or made to forget their identity, whether religious, cultural, or ethnic

That is precisely the task of a strong state, a free society, and a free republic

Political culture and vision must be unified for a single political nation – the Georgian nation.

And everyone is part of that nation.

Let’s return to the main question you raised.

That supposedly no breakthrough is possible this way

If a breakthrough happens for people living there, it will occur without any direct so‑called dialogue with the enemy

What does this “dialogue” have to do with anything?

I also have experience with such dialogue.

Mr. Zakareishvili does as well.

They do not allow discussion of any serious issues.

They refuse to talk about Georgia’s territorial integrity.

They refuse to talk about the return of displaced Georgians.

They won’t even discuss the rights of ethnic Georgians living there.

Mr. Paata was a minister under Ivanishvili’s regime.

They did everything for them (for Abkhaz)

They supplied them with electricity.

They violated agreements and supplied it for free.

The result was bans on the Georgian language, closures of Georgian schools, killings, and repression

Zero positive outcome.

That’s the case with every such step.

When you appear weak, the enemy sees it as weakness.

And responds with even greater brutality.

All this talk about “brotherhood” applies to Russia and its satellites, raised on an ideology of hatred

Russian control must be completely removed.

Mr. Paata says we should avoid topics that might irritate Abkhazians.

Paata Zakareishvili:

НЕ ПОНЯЛА ЧТО СКАЗАЛ

Giga Bokeria:

Didn’t you say we shouldn’t talk about what the enemy dislikes?

Meaning not to talk about fundamental issues without which coexistence is impossible

You do agree that killing women and children on ethnic grounds is evil, don’t you?

If even this cannot be discussed, what kind of breakthrough have you achieved?

Paata Zakareishvili:

This is a settled issue, both the UN and OSCE have a solution

Giga Bokeria:

The UN and OSCE? (not serious)

Paata Zakareishvili:

Who told you we shouldn’t discuss this?

Giga Bokeria:

These topics aren’t included in the dialogue – so what are we supposed to talk about?

I asked, and you said we shouldn’t talk about restoring territorial integrity.

Paata Zakareishvili:

Where did you get that, Giga?

Giga Bokeria:

And why didn’t you bring it up? Does that mean we should be talking about it?

Paata Zakareishvili:

When was I supposed to mention it? We were discussing something else

Giga Bokeria:

That’s the lie you’ve been repeating for years – that Russia gained influence after 2004.

Paata Zakareishvili:

No, that’s not what I said.

Giga Bokeria:

All these international organizations, despite their good intentions, became involved in this so-called “conflictology.”

The result of this conflictology was the normalization of evil.

(You say:)) we must treat these ethnic Abkhazians as a community, understand them, avoid upsetting them.

Sure, they killed people, but we shouldn’t (talk about it)

Some people in these international organizations went along with this – politically, and some not only politically

Host:

We are discussing the past; let’s focus on the future.

Giga Bokeria:

We need to break this cycle of evil.

You can’t have a dialogue where someone claims to represent the Abkhaz

Because the people currently there represent no one but the Russian government.

Paata Zakareishvili:

That’s not true; what you’re saying is a lie.

Host:

Let’s end this part of the conversation

And let’s move to a ten-minute segment where we’ll discuss the steps that need to be taken after de-occupation

We’ll also divide the time so each of you has five minutes.

I think this will make it easier to speak.

Mr. Paata, I’ll give you five minutes.

Giga Bokeria:

So, we’ll talk about the time when Georgia controls Abkhazia

Not just under our jurisdiction, but also under our actual control.

De jure, Abkhazia is part of Georgia even now, but Russia is there too.

Host:

The Abkhaz people live there.

Giga Bokeria:

Not only.

Many other nationalities live there too.

Host:

Yes, not only.

Also displaced persons.

Georgians displaced from Abkhazia currently live in different regions of Georgia.

They want to return

What about the fact that other people now live in their homes?

How should we handle these issues assuming de-occupation has already taken place?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Mr. Giga accused me of using the word “brothers”

I never used the word “brothers” regarding the Abkhaz

Giga has said it probably 20 times

Don’t accuse me of something I never said.

You’re blaming me for things I didn’t even think about.

You said I didn’t mention territorial integrity.

But our conversation here is about what can and should be done now.

We were talking about what the Abkhaz want today.

Giga Bokeria:

Are we going back to that topic again?

Paata Zakareishvili:

Well, I have five minutes.

Host:…